America the Beautiful: Just Don’t Take Pictures

>Are the authorities really this paranoid?

Yes, at least in NYC they are, but you know what? If they’d been that paranoid before 9/11 might not have happened. All last year I worked downtown on Broad Street and right outside our front door was where they stopped all the vehicles headed towards the stock exchange so bomb sniffing dogs could inspect them. There were cops dressed like soldiers carrying automatic weapons right outside the exchange. We were all glad they were all there. It made it easier working next to a target.

Where do you draw the line? One of the things I learned working as a bartender in this town is that most people don’t recognize violence happening in front of them until it’s too late to keep it from happening. Americans just don’t recognize it for what it is let alone know how to prevent it. We’ve always depended on other people to do it for us. I think we are now experiencing the price of freedom as some people in other countries do.

>cameras?

Nothing fancy, they use regular cameras and look like tourists from all I’ve read. Easier to not be noticed.

Sorry, Jim, but Dan’s right. There is no way any security issues are going to be hanging out on the street for any passerby with any camera and any motive to photograph. And if there is, then shame on the morons who put the “secret stuff” in plain view.

This kind of paranoiac over-reaction reeks of a police state, which of course means it fits right into the right-wing religio-political agenda of the Bush Regime.

Not to make light of this, but ok, sorry, ….

If you’re a Fed, and see someone taking pictures of your building using a common camera, then you need to fill the nearest van full of bullets. Someone is trying to measure your response.

If you’re a Fed, and see someone taking pictures of your building using a common camera, then sit back and relax, do nothing to reveal your true preparedness, but start up a cointel op.

If you’re a Fed, and see someone taking pics of your building using a common camera, then harass the individual mercilessly, thus disseminating the false information that our culture may soon face a collapse of our civil liberties, thus enabling the fly paper theory and bringing our enemies out of the woodwork so as to pile on us and bring us down.

If you’re a Fed, and see someone taking pics of your building using a common camera, then harass the folks mercilessly, because you have to justify your budget and because absolute power corrupts.

If you’re not a Fed and observing the Busco and the Justice department, use Occam’s Razor.

I am an amature photographer and I like to take pictures of old buildings. If the police came up to me while taking pictures of a federal building and asked to see my ID and were courteous I wouldn’t have a problem. I sure wouldn’t make them have to run me down… Unless of course I was doing something wrong at the time.
— Quote – I’m writing this to alert all of you to be very aware WHERE you are shooting while in the United States! Yesterday I was out doing some street shooting and apparently I wandered a little too close to our Federal Building downtown with my camera and I was immediately ran down by four officers, detained and questioned for over an hour. end quote.

I think perhaps we haven’t heard the whole story. I don’t believe the police are going to act like storm troopers unless provoked. Like by running when confronted or refusing to co-operate by showing ID. I hope we aren’t making this molehill into a mountain.

This is probably true. I tried to take a picture of the local US 5th Circuit Courthouse one Sunday, with the idea that our law firm’s website needed a picture of a local court. I was immediately approached by a security officer who asked that I not do that. I asked him since when did it become illegal to take a picture of a public building from a public location? He was uncomfortable and I made it clear that I was a lawyer and I truly wanted to know what his opinion was. He of course had to keep his ‘game face’ on and so I relieved his anxiety by telling him that I would accede to his request to make things easier; but I also informed him that he was really on shaky legal ground.

Interestingly, I had another window into the soul of federal security when I ran into the Head Marshall of the local federal district court at a fundraiser. I told him I was pleased to hear the announcement that the local court was finally going to allow cellphones in the court; he said that I was misinformed. I told him that the Chief Judge of the Court had made the annoucement at a public meeting. He said that was a silly thing to do and that she didn’t understand the security risk. I asked what security risk a cellphone would pose. He said “plastic explosives.” In the phone, I asked? Yes, he replied. What about the PDAs that are allowed in? He said those shouldn’t be allowed either.

I’m surprised that they let us wear clothes. If it were up to him we’d all change into Orange jumpsuits. Ah, the mind of the diligent security-conscious government official. It’s really a sad thing to behold.

A co-worker was taking pictures on his lunch hour in downtown Chicago year or so ago, not real long after 9/2001 and had a cop threaten to confiscate his (new, expensive, digital) camera. If I remember correctly (which I may or may not) he had to delete the image in their presence for them to let him go.

I thought it was depressing then. It’s more depressing to think it’s still going on.

It is heartening to see that more and more Americans are willing to protest the conversion of our once free nation into a police state, though.

Hey, you can still photograph the White House.

Dan:

I’ve seen posts like this before on photo.net, and I don’t know if the most recent one is genuine or a hoax, but it is alarming if true.

As a fine art photographer and occasional event photographer, I’m troubled by the severe restrictions placed on photography by many government and commercial entities. It’s a crime to raise a tripod virtually anywhere in Las Vegas – even on the street. I’ve been chased away from Park Service parking lots because of security concerns. (I live a few miles from Yosemite.)

The proliferation of camera phones and the increasing portability and ubiquity of digital cameras and storage are going to meet this kind of heavy-handed enforcement head-on. You can’t stop people from making snapshots when and where they want, despite posted notices or personal endangerment – witness the folks pulled over in the “no stopping – rockfall danger” areas around Yosemite!

I walked around Washington, DC a few weeks ago as a tourist, taking photos of all kinds of federal buildings, the Capitol, etc. and no one said anything. It is a tradition there to take photos of our nation’s landmarks. Why should it be different anywhere else?

I’ve read that you can even take photos on the DC Metro, which I did, as long as you don’t use a tripod. But for some reason you can’t take photos on the New York subways without a permit. Seems inconsistent to me. Source: http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/photopermits.html

You all maybe interested in this: Legal Handbook for Photographers (http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm)

I’m an amateur photographer, I’d thought about wandering around our county taking pictures of the “Art in Public Places” that are part of any buildinjg built with govt funds. Decided not to as stories similar to this one have been in the news since right after 9/11/01 – one guy in NY got interrogated because the statue in public he was photographing faced a govt. building.

and don’t forget the guy who was interrogated in DC for videotaping the monuments – a very abnormal thing for a tourist to do.

Silly question: these are the people who banned nail
clippers from airliners in the name of “national security”.

Outside the USA too.
I was hassled by the RCMP in Canada when taking
a photo of a US consulate and this was before 9/11/2001.

I didn’t say what alledgedly happened was right, it was certainly an amateurish encounter as described.

What I said was:
1. Yes authorities are paranoid
2. Not only did we get used to working in a secure area but came to appreciate it
3. Americans usually don’t notice danger in real life because they are unaccustomed to it
4. I’ve seen statements related to terroist recon that said the people involved appeared as a tourists taking pictures and if you stop and think about it clandestine efforts would be more obvious than touristy type activities
5. I asked where we draw the line

I do not agree with unprofessional police behavior nor am I impressed by “my rights” rants. There is a realistic middle ground that has yet to be recognized. We will lose some “rights” and nothing will change that. When I was a bartender we could spot non-New Yorkers because they just weren’t aware of the space around them. New Yorkers cover their space instinctivly to avoid unpleasant situations. Most Americans, unlike Israelis, South Aficans, or many other populations an ocean away, have only seen violence as entertainment and when it, or the preperation for it, is happening in front of their faces have no idea what they are seeing. The natural consequence of this lack of education and experience is repressive amateurish policy and procedure with “victim” backlash.

It is going to take some time to flesh out realistic policies and procedures to deal with activities that may or may not be security risks. Until that has happened we will all be subject to abuses from the lowest paid, least educated minions of law enforcement (the guys who carry guns and make decisions in the street).

Until then then, my experience with the police has taught me it doesn’t matter what the law is at any given moment, the legality isn’t judged until the next day or later in a dispassionate objective way. If one of these guys stops you, be polite and cooperative. You can make a case the following day.

Of course, if you want to be pro-active, don’t do anything to draw attention to yourself to begin with. If you want to be part of the solution start pushing for clarification of security procedures and be willing to pay more taxes for the neccessary educationa of police and the public.

I don’t like it but I do believe that no matter what we say or do our world has changed and freedom as we have experienced it will be no more than a memory. Anything less than that is unrealistic.

You must not be a railfan, Dan.

There are people whose hobby is photographing locomotives, cars, track, buildings, structures, equipment, scenery, and pretty much everything around railroads. There have been railfans nearly as long as there have been railroads and cameras, and model railroaders who want their layouts to be historically accurate are very grateful to them.

I’ve read several reports in the hobby press of photographers being stopped by railroad security officers and local police. Since a lot of law enforcement officers have never heard of railfanning, sometimes they’re detained for quite a while. Some folks suggest carrying a railfan guide to the area with you.

While going onto railroad property or right of way has always been trespassing, in the past, so long as you looked like you weren’t likely to steal anything or hurt yourself, railroad security people would look the other way or even help you find a good vantage point for a shot. Nowadays, according to the hobby press, they tend to run you off or detain you.

When I was staying near Heathrow several years ago, I’d notice pretty good sized groups of aviation fans taking pictures, and I imagine it’s even harder on them.

You must not be a railfan, Dan.

There are people whose hobby is photographing locomotives, cars, track, buildings, structures, equipment, scenery, and pretty much everything around railroads. There have been railfans nearly as long as there have been railroads and cameras, and model railroaders who want their layouts to be historically accurate are very grateful to them.

I’ve read several reports in the hobby press of photographers being stopped by
railroad security officers and local police. Since a lot of law enforcement officers have never heard of railfanning, sometimes they’re detained for quite a while. Some folks suggest carrying a railfan guide to the area with you.

While going onto railroad property or right of way has always been trespassing, in the past, so long as you looked like you weren’t likely to steal anything or hurt yourself, railroad security people would look the other way or even help you find a good vantage point for a shot. Nowadays, according to the hobby press, they tend to run you off or detain you.

When I was staying near Heathrow several years ago, I’d notice pretty good sized groups of aviation fans taking pictures, and I imagine it’s even harder on them.

What are they going to do about the phone cameras? You can pretend to be looking up a number to make call and snap a picture of the forbidden target… No measure can prevent this.

“Homeland Security” or “Gestapo”?
“Fear of Terrorism” or “Domination”?
“Freedom of Individual Rights” or “Control”?
“Free Country” or “A Prisoner in our own Land”?
Which is it?

Dan, you disappoint me. Not in your concern about the knee-jerk security reactions (although I tend to agree with Jim Moran’s well-reasoned words).

What bothers me is the fact that you, a reasonably respected 🙂 journalist, have reported what you admit is not a substantiated report as if that was irrelevant. Instead, you dismiss that as some other entities responsibility for verifying.

Isn’t that the kind of b.s. that the Bush administration pulls, quoting dubious sources to support their prejudices? C’mon, Dan…give us a standard to live up to…otherwise blognews becomes as useless in advancing the pursuit of truth as the nitwit callers on talk radio.

Do we need to rally the troops again as we did a few months ago regarding Starbucks?

I wonder how the ‘authorities’ would deal with individuals who, like me, don’t generally carry any form of ID. Usually the only thing in my wallet with my name on it is a credit card or two and a couple of business cards.

Sorry folks. This is the way it is. We have to destroy your freedom in order to save it.